Brazil and Argentina

The "Rio" Vulcan. In 1982 I was working in Rio when there was a sudden deep cracking boom, and the windows rattled. It could only have been a sonic boom, a rare occurance in most parts of the world. Turning on the news later I found out it was an Brazilian Air Force F-5 Fighter jet that had intercepted an English bomber that had engine trouble on its way to the Falklands. For several weeks the Vulcan bomber was parked at the Galeao airport, fairly close to the road into Governor's Island. The Vulcan is a beautiful plane, with clean lines and delta wings. This particular plane (number XM 597) became famous in the RAF because of the Rio "visit". There is even a widely circulated photo of it with the caption "Bem vindos ao sol do Brasil!" (Welcome to sunny Brazil). Back to the mean business of war... Anyway, for the most part Brazil (the government) and the Brazilian people stood with Argentina on the issues of the Falkland war (Guerras das Malvinas), even if they disapproved of the Argentine military government (which made the Brazilian milicos seem like a bunch of Boy Scouts) and the manner in which the Argentines chose to assert their property rights. The Brazilian left was especially vocal about supporting their "hermanos" south of the border. It was really quite amusing seeing the PCB and PC do B (communist parties) rally behind General Gallatieri. There were even a few Brazilian volunteers who went south to fight the "Ingleses". In one case a Brazilian showed up at a quartel (miltary base) in Rosario, and after offering his help, was given a broom. Probably not what he had in mind, fortunately for him, but how typical of the attitudes between Brazil and Argentina. Even if Brazilians generally supported Argentina in the Falklands mess, it wasn't exactly a deep, whole-hearted support, because, after all, anything that makes an Argentine unhappy won't necessarily bring tears to a Brazilian's eyes. Even so, the Falklands war was stupid - what a tragedy that many young men died over a small rocky island with a few hundred people and a million sheep! The Brits were highly trained, professional soldiers, and the generals in Buenos Aires had no business sending a bunch of amateur kids-playing-soldiers to fight them. On the other hand, some Brazilian army officers I knew were deeply impressed with the Argentine Air Force (but not their army or navy), which far surpassed the capabilities of FAB (the Brazilian Air force) at that time. A final word about the cruiser sunk by a british submarine. This was the old Phoenix, renamed General Belgrano, which was at Pearl Harbor on December 7. Unlike the battleship Arizona, it went through 4 years of WW2 without a stratch, only to meet a tragic end in the cold waters of the South Atlantic. Note: Ships named after my native state and city are to be avoided.

First of all there is NOT a hate-hate relationship between Brazil and Argentina, it is more of a dislike-desparage relationship. The two countries are rivals, and because of geography and size there are the only two countries in South America that can get on each others nerves. All other countries are either too small, or beyond jungles or very high mountain ranges. That doesn't mean they can't fight each other, but Brazil and Argentina are in a different league. Of course, that is the problem. Argentina is in the "Big Two" group, but not in the "Big One" club. There is a feeling, at least in Buenos Aires, that Argentina should be right there with Brazil at the top, or maybe a step or two above, for reasons I will soon explore. This is what many Argentinans believe, and it is also what Brazilians believe about their neighbors to the South. For about two hundred and fifty years there has been a steady rivilry between the two nations, but which - to their credit - has only rarely broken out into full-fledged war. More often than not, however, the conflict between the two contries has been a matter of self-interest, national pride and many jokes.

After 25 years of Brazil, I find it hard not to associate Argentina with two things: jokes and futebol (soccer). According to the typical stereotype, Argentinans are cold, proud and convencidos (conceited or stuck-up). This is, at least as most Brazilians are concerned, the typical opinion that Brazilian's have of the people of the Southern side of the La Plata. And, sadly, the basis for this is racism. In simple terms, according to popular culture in Brazil, the Argentines look down on Brazil because they are white and Brazilians are not. Of course that is not quite true and the whole relationship is much more complicated, but that is the general notion in black and white (oops, sorry) terms. Let me say also that this is just a stereotype; you can take it to the market but you won't buy even a single bean with it. I don't know a single Argentine that is racist, but I do know Brazilians that think Argentines are conceited, even if not racist. On the good side, even if there is some rancor and/or squabbles between the two countries, it is much less than it used to be. Brazil and Argentina have reached the conclusion that they have more in common than not, and that their shared interests are much greater than their problems with each other. Even so, that is not a good reason to quit telling Argentina jokes.

Fun with maps and geography. Here we have some maps showing how Argentina understands South American cartography (left), and how other neighboring nations would like to see it (middle). The third map (on the right) is proposed re-design for South America, prepared in Buenos Aires -- of course.

Another map. After 9/11 some kind Brazilian prepared this map to help Bush find Afghanistan to bomb. Mui amigo.

Same idea - Bin Laden's true colors.

JOKES

Where do I start?

What do you get when you cross a baiano (from Bahia) with an Argentino? A doorman who thinks he owns the building. What is the best deal on earth? To buy an Argentine for what he is worth and then sell him from what he thinks he is worth.

And there was this priest down in Rio Grande do Sul, on the border with Argentina, that would somehow always end up saying some very unkind things about the folks on the other side of the border in his sermons, who often went to mass in the same church. Once, when asked who where the pharisees, the priest simply said they were kind of like the Argentines. And so on, the priest never missed an opportunity to put down the people of Argentina. Well, there were compliants and the bishop called the priest in and categorically forbid him to say anything bad about Argentina and its people, or even to use that world in church. That Sunday the priest goes to the pulpit, as usual, and the bishop shows up to make sure orders are followed. So the priest begins a sermon on the last supper. The bishop sighs in relief. The priest continues the sermon telling about how the twelve are troubled when Jesus says that there is one among them who will betray him. The priest describes how the apostles all want to know who this person is. Peter asks "Senhor, sou eu?" (Lord, it it I?), and John asks "Senhor, sou eu?" (Lord, it it I?), and James also asks the question "Senhor, sou eu?" (Lord, it it I?). Even Judas asks "Senor, es yo?".

Of course the Argentines have Brazilian jokes, lots of them, but that is not our concern here. The fact is that Argentina, probably even more than Brazil, feels that something is wrong with their country, or that history has passed them by. They are after all, basically a European population (they drove out or exterminated the natives, without even the decency of enslaving them and working them to death, like some Brazilians) and as Europeans, they should have the living standard and stability of Europeans. Like my brother-in-law says: An Argentine is an Italian that speaks Spanish who thinks he is English. I also had a friend tell me that in Argentina they say that the Paraguays came out of caves, the Brazilians came down from the trees, but the Argentines arrived in boats. In other words, the people of Paraguay are wild indians, Brazilians are monkeys, but Argentines are cultured Europeans. Hummmm, but that is extreme.

ECONOMY and HISTORY

Most of the conflict between the two countries has been expressed in verbal duels and diplomatic maneuvers. However beginning in the early 1800s, the explansion of Argentina northward brought it into collison with the Brazilian push to ocupy the southern regions all the way to the La Plata. Brazil had in fact established a colony at Sacramento across from Buenos Aires, and Monte Video was, for a time, part of the Brazilian Empire. For a few decades each of the two countries sought control of the land between them. In the 1820s, after a series of battles (most of which Argentina won), a sensible solution was found: Uruguay was set up as an independent buffer state between Brazil and Argentina. So for almost two hundred years since the two countries have lived peacefully even if not always happily with each other. They even joined forces to destroy Paraguay in th 1860s, although they had good reasons for doing so. Argentina was a late starter, being about 2 centuries newer than Brazil, but it developed quickly, based upon the immigration, easy geography and the rich pampas. By the early 1900s, in many ways, Argentina had left Brazil in the dust: it was richer, more develeped, more policially stable and more attractive to foreign investors. By the late 1930s, the Argentine medium income was higher than many traditional countries in Europe and only 30% less than America's. All this made Brazil somewhat nervous. After all, Brazil was the giant of South America, and Argentina's prosperity and growing influence was troubling. No need to worry. Enter World War 2 and Peron. Argentina got too close to the Nazi's and Peron basically destroyed the economy, buying shoes for Evita (but it made a great opera). I have heard it said by Brazilian army officials that the Vargas government knew Peron was bad for Argentina, and therefore good for Brazil, and they supported him for this reason. They probably give themselves too much credit on this. Anyway, by the 1970s Brazil was growing again and Argentina had fallen into a terrible economic slump and a dirty guerilla war.

"Brazil may become an Argentina" Oh Horror! Since the 1990s, however, both Brazil and Argentina have had a series of ups and downs that reflect political instability and economic uncertainty, culminating in lackluster growth. The uncertainty about the ability of the government to stimulate the economy, control its spending and promote economic growth has caused both Brazil and Argentina to take a backseat to Mexico and Chile, in Latin America. The one consolation for Brazil is that even if things are bad in Brazil, they are worse in Argentina. In June of 2002 Veja magazine, a widely circulated weekly, ran a cover story with the title: O Brasil pode virar uma Argentina. Now that is scare tactics at its worse. Note that it said: "Brazil may become an Argentina", and not "Brazil may become like Argentina". Being like Argentina is bad, becoming an Argentina is unthinkable. Anything but that!

FUTEBOL (AKA Soccer)

If there is one area in which tempers can flare, it is in football (soccer in the US). Nowhere in the world, and I mean nowhere at all, is sport competition greater than when Brazil and Argentina play. Two things make this rivalry even more acute: the fact that Brazil is the planet earth's premier soccer country, with the most world cups and greatest players, and the fact that only one country in the whole world has a positive balance in wins-to-loses with Brazil and that is, of course, Argentina. This fact is never forgotten and it drives Brazilians nuts. As they say in Brazil: "In a World Cup, our first joy is to see Brazil win, the next best thing is to see Argentina lose". A win over Argentina is not just a win, it is justice in action, a restoration of national honor. I remember a Brazilian soccer personality, trying to make the point that Brazilians are more refined than the Argentines, at least as far as futebol is concerned, saying; "When either Brazil or Argentina play Paraguay, the difference is that when Argentina loses, we smile; when Brazil loses, the Argentines dance in the streets".

They just couldn't resist the urge... Popular, doctored versions of a penalty kick line showing Argentina's Soccer team. This was all over the Internet, and as soon as the original (left) came out, at least two more versions (middle and right) were quickly created by people who have too much time on their hands. The idea of the purses was funny, that I guess that wasn't enough, so they added the blonde - a case of adding insult to injury, all in one picture.

Again... Another version, but don't blame Brazilians for this (It's in Spanish). This is a third generation picture, modified (the purses), modified (the putana sueca, or blonde something), and modified again (the added dialogue). It keeps getting better! Nobody is man enough to get the ball. You go! No, You! You..

Another? Actually, there must have been about ten versions of this picture soon after it was first published. The caption says: Exclusive! The camera captures the terror of the Argentines as they face their greatest adversary. If this had been the English, German or any other team, it wouldn't have been even 1/10th as fun!

Also any "futebol" pictures that are unkind to Argentina or its players also are a big success. A favorite target is Maradona, a person that brings extremely bitter memories to Brazilians (something about a World Cup a few years ago.....).

"Mine will get bigger". Of course, if the public is mad at their national soccer team (always called the "Selecao"), the best way to show their anger and contempt is to compare them to Argentina.

"Finally, and Argentine team that a Brazilian can like". I got this in an email with that title. I should have known. I guess not all football teams from Argentina are bad. At least not this one. Can they play? Who cares!

Some more jokes...

VISITA DO PRESIDENTE DA ARGENTINA
O presidente argentino, em visita oficial ao Brasil, iria conhecer uma escola de S�o Paulo.
E o diretor da escola foi preparar os seus alunos para receberem bem a importante visita.
- Voc�s devem ser educados com o senhor presidente. Jo�ozinho, eu vou te perguntar o que � a Argentina para n�s. E voc� responde que a Argentina � um pa�s amigo.
- N�o, senhor diretor! A Argentina � um pa�s irm�o.
- Muito bem, Jo�ozinho. Mas n�o � preciso tanto. Diga apenas que a Argentina � um pa�s amigo.
- N�o e n�o, a Argentina � um pa�s irm�o!
- T� bom, Jo�ozinho. Mas por que � que acha que a Argentina � um pa�s irm�o, e n�o um pa�s amigo?
- Porque amigos a gente pode escolher!

ARGENTINE PRESIDENT VISIT
The Argentine president, in an official visit to Brazil, is to go to a school in S�o Paulo.
The director of the school went to prepare its pupils to receive the important visitor well.
- You must be polite to the president. Jo�ozinho, I am going to ask what Argentina is to us and you will answer that Argentina is a friend country.
- No, Sir! Argentina is a brother country.
- Very well, Jo�ozinho. But it is not necessary to go that far. Just say that Argentina is a friend country.
- No it isn't, Argentina is a brother country!
- OK, Jo�ozinho. But why it is that you think that Argentina is a brother country, and not a friend country?
- Because you can choose your friends!

O INDIANO, O JUDEU E O ARGENTINO
Um avi�o caiu na floresta. Restaram apenas 3 sobreviventes.Um indiano, um judeu e um argentino.
Caminhando entre as �rvores da grande floresta, eles encontraram uma pequena casa e pediram para passar a noite.
O dono da casa disse:
- Minha casa � muito pequena, posso acomodar somente 2 pessoas, 1 ter� que dormir no curral.
O indiano respondeu:
- Eu dormirei no curral, sou indiano e hindu�sta, necessito praticar o bem.
Ap�s uns 30 minutos algu�m bate na porta da casa. Era o indiano, que disse:
- N�o posso ficar no curral, l� tem uma vaca, que � um animal sagrado, e eu n�o posso dormir junto a um animal sagrado.
Ent�o o judeu respondeu:
- Eu dormirei no curral, somos um muito povo humilde e sem preconceitos.
Ap�s uns 30 minutos algu�m bate na porta da casa. Era o judeu, que disse:
- N�o posso ficar no curral, l� tem um porco, que � um animal impuro, eu n�o posso dormir junto a um animal que n�o seja puro.
Ent�o, o argentino, "muy put�n de la vida", aceitou dormir no curral.
Ap�s uns 30 minutos algu�m bate na porta da casa.
Eram o porco, e a vaca THE INDIAN, THE JEW AND THE ARGENTINE
An airplane fell in the forest. They were only 3 suvivors: An Indian (from India), a Jew and an Argentine.
Walking among the trees of the great forest, they found a small house and they asked to pass the night there.
The owner of the house said:
- My house is very small, it can only accomodate 2 people, one will have to sleep in the corral.
The Indian answered:
- I will sleep in the corral, I am a Indian and hindu, I need to practise goodness.
After 30 minutes somebody knocks on the door of the house. It was the Indian, who said:
- I cannot stay in the corral, there is a cow there, which is a sacred animal, and I cannot sleep together with a sacred animal.
Then the Jew responded:
- I will sleep in the corral, we are a humble people and without preconceptions.
After 30 minutes somebody knocks on the door of the house. It was the Jew, who said:
- I cannot stay in the corral, there is a pig there, which is an impure animal, I cannot sleep together with an animal that is not pure.
Then, the Argentine, "muy put�n of la vida" (pissed off), accepted to sleep in the corral.
After 30 minutes somebody knocks on the door of the house.
It was the pig and the cow

I have head that jokes in about 20 versions (gringos, portuguese, jews, arabs, blacks, paulistas, republicans, etc...)

O PASSEIO DE TREM
Estavam em um trem, uma velha, uma mo�a muito boa, um argentino e um brasileiro.
O trem entrou mnum t�nel muito escuro. Escutou-se um beijo e em seguida o ssom de um tapa.
A velha pensou:
- Me orgulho desta mo�a. Um dos dois rapazes beijou ela e ela meteu um tapa nele.
A mo�a pensou:
- Um dos caras tentou me beijar, acabou beijando a velha e levou um tapa.
O argentino pensou:
- Que azar! O brasileiro deu um beijo na guria, e quem levou o tapa fui eu.
O brasileiro:
- Haha, manera�o! Dei um beijo nas costas de minha m�o e meti um puta tapa na cara do argentino.
THE TRAIN RIDE
In a train were an old lady, a very "good" (pretty) young woman, an Argentine and a Brazilian.
The train entered a very dark tunnel. A kiss was heard and after that the sound of a slap.
The old lady thought:
- I am proud of this young woman. One of the two youngsters kissed her and she slapped him hard.
The young woman thought:
- One of the two guys tried to kiss me, but ended up kissing the old lady and took a slap.
The Argentine thought:
- What bad luck! The Brazilian kissed the girl, and the one that got slapped was me.
The Brazilian:
- Ha ha, great! I kissed the back of my hand and slapped the face of the Argentine.

So what do they say in Argentina?

Needed: A transfusion of happiness... These jokes may seem petty and unfair, but the truth is that they are very common. I don't know about Uruguay, but Paraguay, Chile and even mexico have pretty much the same attitude about Argentina as they have in Brazil. Actually Brazil is very mild compared to certain other countries. In Chile, for example, there are whole sites with thousands of jokes just dedicated to Argentina. In Brazil, Argentina jokes are just another category, along with Blonde, Portuguese, Japanese, priests, parrots and Bahiano jokes.

In fact, in August of 2002 there was a story in the Clarin newspaper of Buenos Aires about this, with the title "Argentine jokes: why do foreigners say bad things about us". I will not translate it, but here are a few lines from that article:

Chistes de argentinos: por qu� nos maltratan los extranjeros
Ahora son m�s populares que los de gallegos. Y en Internet hay miles de sitios. Nos "acusan" de fanfarrones, chantas, pedantes pero tambi�n de corruptos y empobrecidos por las continuas crisis Ni la crisis logr� que afuera se tuviera una mirada m�s piadosa de los argentinos. Los chistes que hoy se cuentan en Chile, Brasil, M�xico, Venezuela, Espa�a y tantos otros pa�ses sobre los argentos son m�s feroces que nunca. Nos siguen retratando de la forma habitual �pedantes, fanfarrones, chantas� pero tambi�n con un par de rasgos nuevos: corruptos y empobrecidos.
Son tantas las bromas que circulan en el exterior que ahora el t�rmino "argentinos" es m�s que un simple gentilicio. Se trata directamente de una categor�a de chistes. Es lo mismo que decir de "gallegos" o "verdes".
Internet delata con precisi�n qu� es lo que se dice en cada pa�s de los argentinos. Si uno escribe en el buscador Google las palabras "chistes sobre argentinos" aparecer�n 18.300 sitios con bromas en espa�ol. Y si busca "chistes sobre gallegos" s�lo aparecen 12.700. Los sitios rastreados en portugu�s arrojan una cantidad menor: 2.680 sitios.
Quiz� lo primero que llama la atenci�n de los miles de sitios en espa�ol y portugu�s es que en unos y otros se repiten muchos de los chistes. Otra coincidencia: muchos suenan a�ejos.
Veamos. Se siguen contando aquel de "el mejor negocio es comprar un argentino por lo que vale y venderlo por lo que �l dice que vale". O ese otro de "El ego es ese argentinito que todos llevamos dentro".
Si en todos esos pa�ses se cuentan los mismos chistes, �d�nde se habr�n originado? �En Brasil? �En Venezuela? �Fueron acaso los espa�oles?
El humorista Roberto Fontanarrosa tiene su teor�a: "Para m� los inventamos nosotros mismos. Si uno se fija bien, son encubiertamente elogiosos. Casi todos los chistes hablan de la pseudo superioridad de los argentinos. En el fondo siempre quedamos bien parados. No son da�inos como otros chistes de nacionalidades donde las caracter�sticas que se exaltan de los personajes son la avaricia, la suciedad o la torpeza".
Esa podr�a ser una explicaci�n acerca del origen. El punto es qu� lleva a estos chistes a tener tanto suceso. �Por qu� en una p�gina Web de humor de Chile lo primero que se lee es "Si ustedes son chilenos o de cualquier pa�s y tienen ganas de re�rse de los argentinos llegaron al lugar correcto".
Fontanarrosa encuentra una explicaci�n en la forma de hablar de los argentinos: "Me da la impresi�n que nuestra ra�z italiana, expansiva y gritona, molesta en Latinoam�rica, donde la gente es m�s callada y respetuosa. Hace un tiempo un amigo mexicano me dec�a que no es lo mismo decir 'ven', que suena a invitaci�n, que decir 'ven�', que es imperativo".
The article above comments on how common and vile these jokes are, and how they are uniform thoughout the Spanish and Portuguese speaking world. Actually the article says it is because the other countries don't really understand the Argentines... implying that if they (the foreigners) did them (understand Argentines), they (the foreigners) would love us (the Argentines) as much as we (the Argentines) love ourselves (The Argentines). Well, considering this all, I guess they have a sense of humor in Buenos Aires after all.

One last joke....

I just got this from my niece...

Morte na Estrada
Um brasileiro entra na policia e dirige-se ao Delegado:
- Vim entregar-me, cometi um crime e desde ent�o n�o consigo viver em paz.
- Meu senhor, as leis aqui s�o muito severas e s�o cumpridas e se o senhor � mesmo culpado n�o haver� apela��o nem dor de consci�ncia que o livre da cadeia. Qual o crime que o senhor cometeu?
- Atropelei um homem.
- Isto � muito, muito grave. Pode ir para cadeia.
- Era um argentino na estrada ao sul de Caxias.
- Ora meu amigo, como o senhor pode se culpar se estes argentinos atravessam as ruas e as estradas a todo o momento?
- Mas ele estava parado no acostamento.
- Se estava no acostamento � porque queria atravessar, se n�o fosse o senhor seria outro qualquer.
- Mas n�o tive nem a hombridade de avisar a fam�lia daquele homem, sou um cr�pula!
- Meu amigo, se o senhor tivesse avisado haveria manifesta��o, rep�dio popular, passeata, repress�o, pancadaria e morreria muito mais gente, acho o senhor um pacifista, merece uma est�tua.
- Mas tem ainda o pior... Eu enterrei o pobre homem ali mesmo, na beira da estrada.
- O senhor � um grande humanista, enterrar um argentino, � um benfeitor, outro qualquer o abandonaria ali mesmo para ser comido por urubus e outros animais, provavelmente at� hienas.
- Mas enquanto eu o enterrava, ele gritava : Estoy vivo, estoy vivo!
- Tudo mentira, esses argentinos mentem muito...

Death on the Highway
A Brazilian enters a police station and confesses to the Chief:
- I came to turn myself in, I committed a crime and since then I cannot live in peace.
- Sir, the laws here are very severe and must be obeyed here and if you are really guilty there will be no appeal or excuse about a bad conscience that will keep you out of jail. What crime did you commit?
- I ran over a man.
- That is very, very serious. You may go to jail.
- It was an Argentine on the road to the south of the city of Caxias (near the border).
- My friend, you cannot blame yourself if these Argentines cross streets and higways all the time?
- But he was standing on side of the road.
- He was on the side of the road because he wanted to cross, and if it had not been you it would be someone else.
- But I did not have nor the decency to inform the family of the man, I am a jerk!
- My friend, if you had informed them there would be manifestations, popular repudiation, protests, repression, fights and maybe even more people would die. I think you are a pacifist; you deserve a statue.
- But it is worse... I buried the poor man there, on the side of the road.
- You are a great humanist, to bury an Argentine, You did good, any other person would abandon the body there to be eaten by buzzards and other animals, maybe even hienas.
- But while I was burying him, he cried out: Estoy vivo, estoy vivo! (I am alive, I am alive)
- All lies, these Argentines are always lying...

Oh no!! More Argentina cartoons.... I am shocked!

The billboard wars... A few years ago the PR folks in Brazil and Argentina had a somewhat silly, but creative exchange of cartoons, mixing soccer, national symbols, letters and sex, of course. The images read as follows: 1st (top) - We are thinking of revenge (from Argentina). 2nd (middle) - It wasn't the first time, nor will it be the last. Brazil 3, Argentina 1. 3rd (bottom) - Brazil 3, Argentina 1. That must have hurt!

Brazil accepts refugees from Afghanistan. Hey Captain, we've got some Argentines here in the group!